2011 Super Sentai - Rumor Thread

[garfield15]

Well, I thought plot holes and story holes were the same thing.

(And the K-Touch didn't completely bother me because all Final Forms except probably Kuuga's kind of come out of nowhere. Even Agito's was like "Why can he achieve Shining now? Cause he evolved awesomely that's why!")

However, I do think a great story is what I really think of when I think One Piece esque and it's not like Sentai hasn't told good stories before. I just want to like this one just as much as I like my other favorites.

[dukemon22]

Well, I thought plot holes and story holes were the same thing.

(And the K-Touch didn't completely bother me because all Final Forms except probably Kuuga's kind of come out of nowhere. Even Agito's was like "Why can he achieve Shining now? Cause he evolved awesomely that's why!")

However, I do think a great story is what I really think of when I think One Piece esque and it's not like Sentai hasn't told good stories before. I just want to like this one just as much as I like my other favorites.

Agreed completely. It would definitely be better to have a good story coupled with all the anniversary business.

As far as I'm concerned (this coming from my screenwriting education):

The plot is the sequence of events in the story. Beginning-Middle-End would be a plot. When someone says "This has no plot", they probably actually mean "This has no story".

All stories have plots, simply because things happen. That plot may be bad, or uninteresting, but that's another argument alltogether.

A plot hole usually happens in movies during filming, or when scenes are cut. I'll use Transformers as an example (note, I absolutely adore the live action Transformers films).

-A story hole in the film would be the Allspark. It is, by definition, a Macguffin. That is, a mystical item that the heroes seek out, and that can solve all the problems. We don't know how the Allspark works, but no one cares, cause we see the results.

-A plot hole would be- where the heck did Barricade go? He disappears in the chase scene, and is never seen again. In the script, Prime takes a wrecking ball to his face. This was cut out of the film because they wanted the option to bring Barricade back. However, if you look towards the end, you can see his wreckage on the ship. This is an actual gap in the plot- a sequence was left out.


I'm sure Decade does have a plot hole or two, simply because film crews aren't perfect. But the complaints that people cite fall under the story.

[Beast King]

HOLY S*** ON A S*** SANDWICH! PLEASE LET THIS BE TRUE! PLEASE DON'T SCREW US OUT OF THIS ONE!I hear that one I loved Hiroshi's acting!!!

and bio hunter silver too....

[lazycoconut]

according to the Japanese Wikipedia, Toei wants Super Sentai to have a team of humans not from Earth starting from Goseiger onwards.

Can you quote that?

[Neon]

I'm not too disappointed if I'm completely honest. Even though we do have the decade thing happening, which I would rather not happen right now, we do have the Pirate theme too, so (hopefully) it won't all just be some Sentai Decade knock-off.

[Black Fang]

I can just think of the people who did not want the Decade-esque Sentai or the Pirate Sentai slitting their wrists right now :laugh:

I think people are more against the idea of having nobodies come in to play "alternate versions" of old heroes than the idea of traveling dimensions.


HOLY S*** ON A S*** SANDWICH! PLEASE LET THIS BE TRUE! PLEASE DON'T SCREW US OUT OF THIS ONE!

I'm surprised they actually went as far back as 1984 to get a villain, considering what happened in Boukenger vs. SS.

Who wants to bet Tsuetsue will make yet another appearence?

[Beast King]

I'm surprised they actually went as far back as 1984 to get a villain, considering what happened in Boukenger vs. SS.

Who wants to bet Tsuetsue will make yet another appearence?And I'm surprised Toei went all the way back to 1972 to get random a Gel-Shocker monster for Kamen rider Decade.

Lets face it, if Toei loves the fans They would do anything.

Plus I'd love to see Tsuetsue making her fourth appearence in a super sentai show, i wonder if they plan to grab any other shows like Maskman and Liveman?

[Lynxara]

-A story hole in the film would be the Allspark.

I've studied screenplay writing myself and this is honestly the first time I've ever heard the term "story hole" used seriously. I believe, using your definition, the Allspark would be a MacGuffin that also serves as a Deus Ex Machina. You can argue it's weak writing for your story to center around a basically magical object but I don't see how it's a "hole" in the story.

-A plot hole would be- where the heck did Barricade go? He disappears in the chase scene, and is never seen again.

This is a completely correct definition of a plot hole, though. I hope everyone reads it and studies it, because I see things called "plot holes" in some other threads that aren't even close to actually being a plot hole.

Plot holes can result from things besides dropped sequences, though. Someone can just not think a particular plot element through, perhaps due to deadline pressure, and just end up writing something that doesn't quite make sense.

The old "Daiki travels through the holes in the plot!" does address a legitimate, fundamental plot hole in Decade. We get a very complicated origin story for how Tsukasa, Natsumi, Ei-chan, and Yuusuke travel through space and time... but Daiki just does it with no mention of how.

Early on the impression is given that it's something the story will explain later, but that explanation was never conveyed to the audience. (Not even in Episode Yellow, judging by synopses.) Daiki just tends to end up wherever the plot's going to be, because otherwise he couldn't be in the story.

[Sage Shinigami]

That's the thing that really bugs me about Decade criticism. It didn't have very many plot holes (at least not moreso than other Kamen Rider shows.)

What it had was story holes.

We don't know how Daiki gets around dimensions, we just know that he can. Things like that aren't plot holes; it's just a lack of story. (And frahttp://forums.henshinjustice.com/images/smilies/buttrock.gifnkly, it doesn't take that much of a leap to say that Daiki has this power naturally. It's revealed in All Riders that Tsukasa can just dimension-warp when he wants to, before his memories go wonky.)

Compare how Decade gets his power up to how Hibiki or Blade get theirs-

Decade gets it from an alternate world of Dark Riders, where the Keitouch is the alternate "treasure" of that world.

Hibiki and Blade get their power-ups brought to them in a suitcase.

Again, we need to sort of accept the story is going to get a little skewed, in favor of fanfic-level fanwanking.

I'm not saying Decade doesn't have its problems. It does, but not to the level everyone complains about. Nor am I saying that they shouldn't strive for a great story in Go-Kaiger, I just think we need to cut the production some slack.

...They're way, way worse than that. Decade wasted nearly all of its potential, and that's just downright infuriating.

As far as Goukaiger though?

First off, I love the idea of them "sailing the seas of space-time". Reminds me, vaguely, of Earendil from the Silmarillion. I hope they keep that.

The crossover idea, though? It's a better fit to Sentai than Rider anyway. They can't just swap out actors--there's dozens of Sentai actors and actresses across the three decades. You'd have to shell out a crapload of money to pay guest actors anyway, so why not go all out?

Plus Rider's been known for it's story since Kuuga, but story-based Sentai are the exception, not the rule. World-hopping would actually give a fair deal more structure to Sentai than it normally gets.

The only thing I hope is that:

A.) Rumored colors change. I hate it when teams have only one female. Aside from Red and Pink, it might be better to use "alternate" colors so Blue and Yellow wouldn't be locked into switching genders when they did certain characters.

B.) The characters are suitably awesome. Like, Shinkenger or Flashman awesome.

C.) The villains are sufficiently impressive. If I see anymore Yuumajuu-types, I'll scream.


Also, it'd be cool to have Senshi from places outside Earth...but man, that "A phone? We don't have these where I come from" stuff gets old REALLY REALLY fast.

[Gold Samurai]

Also, it'd be cool to have Senshi from places outside Earth...but man, that "A phone? We don't have these where I come from" stuff gets old REALLY REALLY fast.


"Eh? this black box suddenly turned on to show an image"

Gaoranger

[dukemon22]

I've studied screenplay writing myself and this is honestly the first time I've ever heard the term "story hole" used seriously. I believe, using your definition, the Allspark would be a MacGuffin that also serves as a Deus Ex Machina. You can argue it's weak writing for your story to center around a basically magical object but I don't see how it's a "hole" in the story.



This is a completely correct definition of a plot hole, though. I hope everyone reads it and studies it, because I see things called "plot holes" in some other threads that aren't even close to actually being a plot hole.

Plot holes can result from things besides dropped sequences, though. Someone can just not think a particular plot element through, perhaps due to deadline pressure, and just end up writing something that doesn't quite make sense.

The old "Daiki travels through the holes in the plot!" does address a legitimate, fundamental plot hole in Decade. We get a very complicated origin story for how Tsukasa, Natsumi, Ei-chan, and Yuusuke travel through space and time... but Daiki just does it with no mention of how.

Early on the impression is given that it's something the story will explain later, but that explanation was never conveyed to the audience. (Not even in Episode Yellow, judging by synopses.) Daiki just tends to end up wherever the plot's going to be, because otherwise he couldn't be in the story.

I wasn't saying it was weak writing to use one, or even that it bothered me.

And I do tend to have a personal problem with using the term plot hole at all, because it usually doesn't address a problem with the plot.

As for Daiki, I still wouldn't consider that a plot hole. We see warping throughout the story, and there's no reason given to why the warping occurs. To me that would be more of the plot hole than Daiki popping up. But given the amount of ways that the characters in Decade travel through dimensions, it doesn't really bother me all too much.

[Lynxara]

I wasn't saying it was weak writing to use one, or even that it bothered me.

I was using general "you," which addresses a hypothetical person or speaker. I wasn't referring to you, personally.

(English needs more pronouns!)

As for Daiki, I still wouldn't consider that a plot hole. We see warping throughout the story, and there's no reason given to why the warping occurs. To me that would be more of the plot hole than Daiki popping up.

What you're addressing with the "dimension walls" is a lack of exposition. Not including exposition as to how they work is a very different thing than a flat-out plot hole. We don't need to know how dimension walls work to accept them as an actor in the plot. I don't know what triggers bird migration, no one does yet, but it's not a "plot hole" if bird migration is part of a story's plot.

Really, your definition of "plot hole" there is troubling. Have your writing classes covered Actual Machines versus Fucking Magic yet, under any name, when discussing setting construction and the supernatural? Right now you seem to be implying that any use of FM setting elements is a plot hole, which is absolutely not the conventional use of the term.

In the case of Daiki, he is the only character where there is no explicit or implicit method for him to travel, he literally just appears. The dimension walls are shown implicitly to be controlled first by Narutaki and later by Dai-Shocker. They are effectively a "bad guy" method of dimension travel. This is understandable and is depicted in a reasonably consistent fashion throughout the series and films.

The "good guys" travel through Hikari Studio, which is following a pattern set out by the paintings. Effectively, Tsukasa is going where he is destined to go with the others as his companions. This also makes perfect sense and is depicted consistently throughout the series and films.

Now, Daiki... he's not really a bad guy. Accordingly, we don't see him use the dimension walls and we never see him flat-out ally with the characters who do. He's not really a good guy, though. Accordingly, we don't see him travel using Hikari Studio. So it's implicit in the story's logic that Daiki must have some method of his own.

Much is made of establishing the bad guy and good guy travel methods, but Daiki's method is not even mentioned, let alone depicted. That is a problem from a technical perspective, even if it doesn't bother you personally as a viewer. There's no good reason not to show that, imply that, or even just resolve it in a quick exchange of dialog, say between Tsukasa and Daiki.

[TaToBa]

I was very against this at first after hearing it would be Decade-ish. Thinking back though, I think what really bothered me with Decade the most was all the AU Riders. I was so excited when I first heard about Decade thinking I was going to get to see all the past heroes I loved and instead they were replaced with random people who for the most part didn't do anything for me. Yuusuke is the only exception to this, probably because he had a lot more story than the others.

Anyway, besides that, I also hated how they ended it on a cliffhanger and then the movie skipped over the part with the Rider battle and just felt poorly done all together.

As long as they get actual actors back for this show and don't do a cliffhanger, I think I will end up enjoying it, and because of that I no longer have anything against this idea. There are enough actors in each show that I couldn't see them deciding to just randomly replace someone. I'm starting to feel a bit of that excitement I had again before Decade aired.

[garfield15]

I really hope they actually are getting these cast members back and not just saying they were like how Rider 1, 2 and V3 were supposed to have their voices or how X-Rider's actor didn't even know about it.

[TaToBa]

I really hope they actually are getting these cast members back and not just saying they were like how Rider 1, 2 and V3 were supposed to have their voices or how X-Rider's actor didn't even know about it.

Yeah. Even if they don't give them a new actor, this would also bother me. If they can't get someone back then skip them and pick another character. I guess that would make the story a bit harder to write though.

[Wing Saber]

Anyway, besides that, I also hated how they ended it on a cliffhanger and then the movie skipped over the part with the Rider battle and just felt poorly done all together.

When they reaired Decade, they changed the ending part by editing in Natsumi's dream of the Rider War so that it would fit in better with Movie War 2010. So the part where Daiki shoots Tsukasa is considered non-cannon.

[TaToBa]

When they reaired Decade, they changed the ending part by editing in Natsumi's dream of the Rider War so that it would fit in better with Movie War 2010. So the part where Daiki shoots Tsukasa is considered non-cannon.

That's part of what I was getting at with it being poorly done. They built up this big epic battle of the Riders and just skipped over it all and chopped out the Daiki part. Sure they went back and fixed it but that only makes it look sloppier having a version 2 of the episodes.

Like I said, as long as this is planned out better and they don't pull something like that I have a feeling I am going to like this show.

[Let's Go-On]

Now, Daiki... he's not really a bad guy. Accordingly, we don't see him use the dimension walls and we never see him flat-out ally with the characters who do.


I seem to remember him using the dimension walls at least twice.

One time was during the Faiz World arc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt8jE1ZlPjY

And the other time I remember was when he used the wall to go to Shinkenger's World to steal the Ika Origami.

[Wing Saber]

Well it sounds like Gokiagers is more better planned out, since it taking a whole year to try to get back every Sentai actor.

[TaToBa]

Well it sounds like Gokiagers is more better planned out, since it taking a whole year to try to get back every Sentai actor.

Not only that but they of course have Decade to look back on and see what worked and what didn't. I kind of wish they tried Sentai out as the guinea pig first since I knew all the Heisei Riders, and a lot of the early Sentai I don't, but Sentai seems like a much bigger project since there are so many series to look back on as opposed to primarily staying within Heisei for Decade. It made sense to start with Kamen Rider first. I am continuing to look forward to this show even more. I mainly what to know what kind of henshin device they will use and what the enemies will be like.

[Lynxara]

So the part where Daiki shoots Tsukasa is considered non-cannon.

Except the Decade DVDs shipped with the original version of the ending on the disc. So Decade effectively has two endings now, the DVD ending and the edited TV rerun ending.

[Blue Saint]

Except the Decade DVDs shipped with the original version of the ending on the disc. So Decade effectively has two endings now, the DVD ending and the edited TV rerun ending.
So it is like the Schrödinger's cat of Japanese live action superheroes.

And about the latest rumors I hope that there is a Gashapon machine that the rangers get the past ranger figures from.

[dukemon22]

Except the Decade DVDs shipped with the original version of the ending on the disc. So Decade effectively has two endings now, the DVD ending and the edited TV rerun ending.

I would consider them as the same ending, just with different shots included.

In one, we get to see the battle start to escalate. In the other, we see it develop into a war. It's not too much of a leap. And you can see the laser beams from nowhere in both endings. I think it was just a matter of not having the time to put all of it in.

Personally, the first ending felt better, and more fitting. The second version serves as a bookend, but isn't as dramatic for me.

And I definately agree with your other points, to an extent. But people do over-exaggerate some of Decade's faults.

[Lynxara]

I would resolve them as the same ending.

Yeah, I consider them basically the same because either way. The events of that episode don't actually conclude and, really, don't actually matter to Movie Taisen 2010. Both endings tease the movie equally well, I feel. The edited rerun ending tries to give a better illusion of closure to Decade's TV run but it's no more than that, an illusion.

And I definately agree with your other points, to an extent. But people do over-exaggerate some of Decade's faults.

Well, I think Decade's plot faults are actually pretty severe, but fans err by describing the show as the sum total of its faults. It should be acknowledged that Decade did some things right and was particularly good at just being entertaining on an episode-to-episode basis.

I think people just get so wrapped up in the issues with the plot that they forget that stories can be enjoyed on plenty of levels besides the plot level, which does tend to be the one fans like best. (Either plot or character, most of the time.)

[NeonZ]

Yeah, I consider them basically the same because either way. The events of that episode don't actually conclude and, really, don't actually matter to Movie Taisen 2010. Both endings tease the movie equally well, I feel. The edited rerun ending tries to give a better illusion of closure to Decade's TV run but it's no more than that, an illusion.

I don't see how you can say that. The original ending wasn't worse than the second one by itself, but the problem is that most of the stuff it teases in the ending (like Diend turning on Tsukasa and Yuusuke getting brainwashed) are irrelevant to the final movie.

The new ending basically just focuses on the Rider War in general, which is actually still relevant to The Last Story. As far as tying in with the movie goes, the new tv series ending is much better.