Owari Out, Cho Den-O Trilogy IN!

[MrMonk]

Here's the only thing that really bothers me:

All Riders, Tsukasa has gotten tossed aside by Daishocker. RiderGackt punches him and then... he's all better?

At no point did he repent for being evil. In fact, as far as I could tell his motivation was 'you guys betrayed me! Now you must pay!'

I just got the feeling is Daishocker had never tossed him aside, he'd have been perfectly fine remaining 'evil'.

[Igadevil]

I didn't mind it. Tsukasa remembered who he was, reverted to his old self, got booted out, and realized he'd screwed up. There's the Gackt scene (which would have benefitted from being longer), but there's also that bit with Natsumi in the rain and Tsukasa's triumphant return. It's a process that builds up over time. Him repenting was basically asserting that he had to live on as the person he'd become (Tsukasa the hero), not the person he was supposed to be (Tsukasa the Great Leader.) It's not really about "I'm sorry world, forgive me!!!1!" as it is "What I am is better than what I was, and I can't go back, so I must keep going forward". That might not be enough for everybody, but I was mostly okay with it. If we'd gotten scenes of Tsukasa clubbing baby seals, then it'd be a different story...

Though I wasn't really happy with Movie War's version, where Tsukasa really doesn't come out of it looking very good and in the end just fulfills some cosmically-decided role, which I found kind of un-Riderish, actually.


The alternative reading is that Tsukasa was just pretending to be evil and was trying to do some of that Kuuga World-esque "secret chess master" stuff, and again, it all gets out of hand and bites him in the ass... though there's not really much in the movie to support that beyond being a theory.

I have another theory, but it's pure fanwank and has no basis in anything we saw onscreen, other than what I think would've been cool. :P

[NeonZ]

He pretty much had to do that if he was going to form any kind of personal connection with Kuuga. He had to act like Kuuga would on some level.

At that point though, he didn't know that he'd recover his powers if he connected with him, so he'd have no personal advantage from doing it.

Personally, that's an aspect of the character I found interesting, the idea that he was kind of selfish and mostly concerned with living the way he wanted to live.

Tsukasa had an uncaring attitude and couldn't understand people very well (At least, according to what he said in the Ryuuki world, when he went on about how he'd believe in Ren due to Yuusuke) but I don't think he was ever truly selfish.

Even when it's revealed that he was Dai-Shocker's Great Leader, it's also revealed that he had another motivation behind that besides just conquering everything.

I don't think having a personal agenda is opposed to heroism.

Well, "agenda" implies some kind of motive behind their heroic actions, not just the Riders having some unrelated interest. That's what I thought you were talking about.

If you just mean that they had other interests, I don't disagree, although...

I think it is pretty different from the way Showa dudes just lived to save little kids from kaijin, though. A different sort of attitude toward the genre, you might say. Heisei Riders want things aside from just being a Rider, that goes back to Godai.

Hm... I can't really make that comment about the old Riders.

I've watched a few movies and episodes, but the only ones I had seen completely were Black and RX. Kotaro obviously just went on with his life after the events of Black ended, although I know the transition to his RX self is just non existent.

Only recently I've actually started watching the Showa series continuously (starting from the first episode of the first one). Part of Hongo's attitude, at least, that might make it seem like he only cares about being a Rider, is that he doesn't consider himself human anymore. I think there are two or three scenes in the first 10 episodes which show him accidentally grabbing a hand or object with too much force and then he immediately starts thinking about how he's a cyborg now. He also apparently fears people discovering his identity as the Kamen Rider, like it were a source of shame.

Hayato, however, seems to have fun taking pictures and, at least, in his initial episodes, doesn't even seem to take the battle against Shocker that seriously. His only moment of worry about his nature happened right after a nightmare about Shocker capturing him. I've only watched 6 episodes with him so far though, so those character traits might end up dropped later on as the series reaches maturation.

[Lynxara]

At that point though, he didn't know that he'd recover his powers if he connected with him, so he'd have no personal advantage from doing it.

I wonder about that. Tsukasa is speaking Grongi for no clearly stated reason in that arc and doesn't seem to question his ability to do so. I read that as Tsukasa kind of understanding, on a gut, subconscious level, how his abilities must work. Otherwise I feel like we would've had a "Why can I do this?" sort of scene.

So I think Tsukasa does understand, on a gut level, that his goal in each world is to make a connection and reclaim his powers by doing so. So I think Tsukasa can be selfish without being unheroic-- what's in his best interest just also happens to be in everyone else's.

I think it makes an interesting contrast with Diend, who is presented as superficially selfish but also seems to care a lot more about other people as ends in themselves than Tsukasa, who tends to treat people as means to an end unless he catches himself.

This is the only rationale I ever came up with for why Diend would mentor Asumu in the Hibiki arc instead of Decade, anyway. It only makes sense if it's a character point. The Nega World arc kind of drives home the idea that Daiki is basically altruistic on some deeper level, too.

[musashi03]

How is Accel an Asshole Rider?. He is tough, not an asshole.

Because he keeps insulting and bullying my boy Shotaro around. :170:

[Forever Knight]

Because he keeps insulting and bullying my boy Shotaro around. :170:

Last I saw they were working together well. Just because he isn't licking Shotaro's balls and running around acting like a 2 year old Japanese child doesn't make him an asshole.

[musashi03]

Last I saw they were working together well. Just because he isn't licking Shotaro's balls and running around acting like a 2 year old Japanese child doesn't make him an asshole.

Last you saw, but the episodes before that he was clearly that thing you don't want him considered such.

Let's face it, Terui wouldn't have changed his personality if it weren't for Shotaro, and yet Terui doesn't give him credit for it.

Too much pride man, too much pride.

[slickenside]

OMG! i was really2 surprised with title of this thread.
OMG! Den-O will be come back again..

oh shits..

:(

[Forever Knight]

Last you saw, but the episodes before that he was clearly that thing you don't want him considered such.

Let's face it, Terui wouldn't have changed his personality if it weren't for Shotaro, and yet Terui doesn't give him credit for it.

Too much pride man, too much pride.

Yeah, his debut 2-parter was all anger and set on revenge but after that he did change. He is still a tough ass but he sure as hell ain't no asshole Rider.

[musashi03]

Yeah, his debut 2-parter was all anger and set on revenge but after that he did change. He is still a tough ass but he sure as hell ain't no asshole Rider.

I think this is contributing to his image that he's an @sshole rider:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4253312/kamen_rider_accel_gunner_a/

:laugh:

But kidding aside, we'll probably see if he is once he meets Weather and realizes he's the one who murdered his family.

[nerefir]

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1324/i00725931269622512.jpg

[Jeffry2010]

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1324/i00725931269622512.jpg

Why is Daiki Kaitou holding an Urataros Rod? I know, he's probably under Urataros's control.

[musashi03]

Yes, there were scans of Kimito Totani (Diend's actor) having the blue hairline and Ura pose. So it seems he's possessed by Urataros at that pic if I had to guess.

[Lynxara]

That is a match made in heaven.

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Seems his belt's changed.

[DangerDang]

Seems his belt's changed.

Whose?

[GekiDan]

Whose?
I think he's talking about DiEnd...
But it doesn't...

[big_j_ny]

But kidding aside, we'll probably see if he is once he meets Weather and realizes he's the one who murdered his family.

You are one week late on that already........... *sighs* :redface2:

[musashi03]

You are one week late on that already........... *sighs* :redface2:

I don't read spoilers, so forgive me.

[Forever Knight]

The more I see of G Den-O's suit the more I likey.

[Ryuutaros]

I hate it. >.>

[musashi03]

The more I see of G Den-O's suit the more I likey.

Same here, other than the small Imagin face on his chest, the concept is fine with me.

[NeonZ]

I wonder about that. Tsukasa is speaking Grongi for no clearly stated reason in that arc and doesn't seem to question his ability to do so. I read that as Tsukasa kind of understanding, on a gut, subconscious level, how his abilities must work. Otherwise I feel like we would've had a "Why can I do this?" sort of scene.

Most of that knowledge though, presumably comes from his previous experience. Even in the first episode, it was strongly hinted, if not outright stated, that he previously was Decade, but had lost his memories and powers somehow.

However, befriending the Riders to get their powers and cards doesn't seem like something that Decade would do before his memory loss. Even if you think the story about his past shown later was tacked on, and not originally intended, the show never gave a positive outlook about Decade, aside from the one coming from his actions in the present. Every mystery about him always seemed to be shown in a negative light.

So, considering that, I don't think "befriending Riders to get their powers" was something that Tsukasa knew instinctively. I don't think anyone ever intended for pre-amnesia Tsukasa to be a traveller, going around becoming friends with Riders of multiple worlds.

This is the only rationale I ever came up with for why Diend would mentor Asumu in the Hibiki arc instead of Decade, anyway. It only makes sense if it's a character point. The Nega World arc kind of drives home the idea that Daiki is basically altruistic on some deeper level, too.

Tsukasa says that Daiki is trying to fill the gap in his heart or something close to that in the Diend episodes. So, Diend's rare good moments probably are an attempt to make up for his past, while his standard treasure hunting is an attempt to forget it.

[musashi03]

Honestly, I think the cleptomaniac thing is better if Kaito was actually a kid or somebody who acts like a kid and not as serious as Kaito is. I mean, by the way you and the show says it, that the treasure-hunting was a way to get away from everything, the idea could have been better executed if they clearly showed that Kaito was a very irresponsible person who'd rather run from his responsibilities/reality, since they were already leaning to that after making Diend have the "run-away" personality during fights, always using the Invisible card and summoning bodyguards to do the fighting for him as he slips away.

[KaenBurakku]

Heh. If they turned Kaito into a kid they could do so many Detective Conan references.