Owari Out, Cho Den-O Trilogy IN!

[Gold Samurai]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7801/38223471.jpg

[MrMonk]

I think it's something like Diend doesn't use Riders from that world (series) in the actual world... though I'm probably wrong about that.

It's a good guess. If he summons the actual versions, then there's probably some sort of paradox prevention at work.

Yeah, that's my theory too, though that would make Diend Complete a Den-O series exclusive.

Yuuki could have been the best option, considering one of his forms was used by Ryotaro himself.

I put forth that if he goes to another world, the cards on his chest would switch. Put him in Agito, and a Den-O movie villain would replace G4.

Of course all this is more thought than Toei probably put into it.

[Tiger]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7801/38223471.jpg

2 Diends? What is this? I hope that's his illusion card.

Edit:


I put forth that if he goes to another world, the cards on his chest would switch. Put him in Agito, and a Den-O movie villain would replace G4.

Of course all this is more thought than Toei probably put into it.

Yeah, that's true. Now I think of it, Decade Complete was only used outside of rider worlds.

[NeonZ]

Yeah, that's true. Now I think of it, Decade Complete was only used outside of rider worlds.

It was used in the Rider War World, which was a fusion of different worlds, including at least, Blade, Hibiki and Kiva.

I still think they just lost the Den-O suits somehow.

[artmaster079]

It was used in the Rider War World, which was a fusion of different worlds, including at least, Blade, Hibiki and Kiva.

I still think they just lost the Den-O suits somehow.

I don't think they lost them, but remember that the base design for Yuuki came from Gaoh, so either certain suits may be used in other suits, or they may not be complete anymore. Who knows how PLEX does things anyway.

[Lynxara]

I don't think they lost them, but remember that the base design for Yuuki came from Gaoh, so either certain suits may be used in other suits, or they may not be complete anymore.

This. Sometimes parts of suits are reused to make other suits more cheaply. It was especially likely to happen pre-Decade, for minor character suits that Toei had no reason to think they'd ever want again.

Rider War World was, like... Bullshit World. It didn't make any sense. Even if Decade was barred from using Riders from a given world in that world, there's no reason why that rule would apply to Rider War World, I'd think.

It's a world that doesn't "really" exist in the first place.

[NeonZ]

I don't think they lost them, but remember that the base design for Yuuki came from Gaoh, so either certain suits may be used in other suits, or they may not be complete anymore. Who knows how PLEX does things anyway.

I didn't mean literally forgetting where they are, just that for one reason or another, those suits probably aren't around anymore. I'm not trying to guess the reason... although I do think that the explanation for the absence of Gaoh probably is Yuuki, but that doesn't explain the lack of Nega Den-O and Yuuki itself.

Rider War World was, like... Bullshit World. It didn't make any sense. Even if Decade was barred from using Riders from a given world in that world, there's no reason why that rule would apply to Rider War World, I'd think.

Well, it still was created by a fusion of worlds, it's not like it appeared out of nothingness.

Anyway, now that I think about it... Decade got the Kamen Ride Black card in the RX World, and Diend still was able to use it there.

[Lynxara]

Well, it still was created by a fusion of worlds, it's not like it appeared out of nothingness.

That was said, not shown. The way the world worked was clearly arbitrary and decided in service of the arc's plot. Which I'd be okay with if the plot had been any damn good.

Anyway, now that I think about it... Decade got the Kamen Ride Black card in the RX World, and Diend still was able to use it there.

The Black/RX arc was wacky. It emphasized fanservice over any sort of internal logic. It's fun but on a basic level doesn't make any real sense. (Much like Decade itself.)

[Blue Saint]

Also not having the suits on hand does mean much anyway, especially with Den-O suits. All the rider suits follow the same pattern, the pants are the same save for color difference. Plus the biggest cost, the helmet, was probably saved anyway since let's face it Gaoh's helmet can't be reused easily. Personally I think the reason is that they are saving Gaoh and Yuuki for a later movie, no point in wasting them now.

[NeonZ]

That was said, not shown. The way the world worked was clearly arbitrary and decided in service of the arc's plot. Which I'd be okay with if the plot had been any damn good.

Huh? The selection of worlds appearing there was arbitrary, but how was the world's concept and the story itself arbitrary? "Fusion of the Worlds" was something mentioned since the 1st episode. We weren't shown that specific fusion happening, but we did see the imagery of the Earths clashing.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the arc, so I don't see why you even mentioned it. Like it or not, it still was formed by multiple worlds, it's not some unrelated world.

The Black/RX arc was wacky. It emphasized fanservice over any sort of internal logic. It's fun but on a basic level doesn't make any real sense. (Much like Decade itself.)

The RX/Black arc empathized fanservice over story, I agree, but I don't see how that hurt the story's coherence, aside from the Diend summon Kotaro briefly appearing in human form before transforming, which isn't such a big problem. Previous Diend summons had already talked and showed personality, having a copy of the Rider inside the suit isn't a stretch. It's certainly not enough to just dismiss the entire arc.

The card was completely black too, initially, rather than grayed out, fitting well with the pattern used in the Hibiki World.

Also not having the suits on hand does mean much anyway, especially with Den-O suits. All the rider suits follow the same pattern, the pants are the same save for color difference. Plus the biggest cost, the helmet, was probably saved anyway since let's face it Gaoh's helmet can't be reused easily.

I could see a remade suit if Gaoh actually had any importance, but he'd just end up as an extra card on Diend's chest and probably a summon. It wouldn't be worth it remaking the suit just for that.

[Gold Samurai]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6073/gdeno3.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/gdeno3.jpg/)
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3900/gdeno2.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/gdeno2.jpg/)
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4059/gdeno1.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/gdeno1.jpg/)

[NeonZ]

Den-O vs G Den-O? Everything shown up to now had made him look like an hero...

I guess it'll turn out that he's secretly commanding these evil Imagins?

[Wing Saber]

Den-O vs G Den-O? Everything shown up to now had made him look like an hero...

I guess it'll turn out that he's secretly commanding these evil Imagins?

I see more as Den-O getting into G Den-O's way.

[Lynxara]

"Fusion of the Worlds" was something mentioned since the 1st episode. We weren't shown that specific fusion happening, but we did see the imagery of the Earths clashing.

Yeah, and based on that I never would've imagined we'd get "the fusion world is basically a world where asshole versions of canon Riders make a handful of the alts do battle while Apollo Geist screws around having a wedding."

What we got was "ehhh let's have some fighting and end on a cliffhanger," more or less. A world fusion really should've felt a lot more like the opening episodes, given that they're supposed to depict the unmitigated horror of a world fusion.

The RX/Black arc empathized fanservice over story, I agree, but I don't see how that hurt the story's coherence,

The Black half of the arc just... it really didn't make sense to me. The entire way they portray Kotaro is just weird, it's not congruous with Black. The bit involving the kid sort of logical but requires Tsukasa engaging in some totally spontaneous, unmotivated behavior.

Then their excuse for getting Black and Black RX to fight together involved making Diend's powers world a way they never have before or since (that I've seen). I suppose I should be glad they bothered to justify Diend being in the arc, but...

The Black RX half is fairly congruous and holds together, so I was puzzled when the Black half just kind of collapsed. It's a long chain of fights, more or less. It's a chain of fights I like, but man it just does not make any sense.

[musashi03]

Regarding the BLACK/RX world, I just think much like all of the arcs in Decade, just used the gist of the stories and not really try to be totally consistent with the original series it represents.

Yes it does not make any sense, but as long as it was fun and it did somehow portray a side of Kotaro which was unconditionally heroic, even though he did have real concrete motivations in his original series.

You win some you lose some, that's about it, we really can't have everything, and in the case of Decade, we lost more than what we truly gained.


Of course all this is more thought than Toei probably put into it.

I definitely agree. :laugh:

I
I still think they just lost the Den-O suits somehow.

This might be giving them to much credit, but I really don't think they are that stupid to not have at least 1 back-up suit stored in their warehouses, which I doubt was stolen also.

[KamenRiderPegasus]

G Den-O looks cool, very Metal Heroes like. Just hope he isn't going to be another asshole Rider, we already have Accel... and I heard he has an artificial Imagin named Eve, so looks like we're gonna have another female Imagin.

For some reason this Pig Imagin reminds me of that Shin-chan/Den-O crossover...maybe it's that same "Imagin?" lol..

[DarkeSword]

Den-O vs G Den-O? Everything shown up to now had made him look like an hero...

I guess it'll turn out that he's secretly commanding these evil Imagins?
You can't introduce a new Rider without having him fight another Rider. Riders always fight each other; it rarely has anything to do with good or evil. :P

[musashi03]

You can't introduce a new Rider without having him fight another Rider. Riders always fight each other; it rarely has anything to do with good or evil. :P

Yeah, it's pretty much been tradition. I think they are just fighting to show who has the larger d*ck.

[NeonZ]

What we got was "ehhh let's have some fighting and end on a cliffhanger," more or less. A world fusion really should've felt a lot more like the opening episodes, given that they're supposed to depict the unmitigated horror of a world fusion.

We did get some elements from the initial episodes, like monsters rampaging and destruction, I especially liked the scene which showed the deaths of Todoroki and Amaki. The episode could have use a few extra clips like those to show how chaotic the situation was in that world.

There was a lack of civilians though, and I agree that the 1st episode had better direction... But... yet again... How is this related to anything?

Yes, sure, you didn't like the episode, obvious enough, but that doesn't mean it wasn't about a world fusion.

The bit involving the kid sort of logical but requires Tsukasa engaging in some totally spontaneous, unmotivated behavior.

Do you really think that Tsukasa moving to protect the kid's life is that weird? It's not like he had never done a selfless act before. Even back in the Kuuga episodes, he went to face the Grongis alone, even though there wasn't anyone close to him getting attacked out there.

Then their excuse for getting Black and Black RX to fight together involved making Diend's powers world a way they never have before or since (that I've seen). I suppose I should be glad they bothered to justify Diend being in the arc, but...

It's the only time a Diend summon has really appeared out of suit, aside from Final formride Momotaros... but, previous summons had talked and showed personality, and Ixa's showed that it had some kind of internal visor, so having a copy of the Rider in there isn't really such a stretch. They did bend the rules for fanservice, with the summoned Black starting out of suit, but it wasn't that much considering how it had been shown before that the summons weren't just empty suits.

[Jedimon]

I'm enjoying the look of G Den-O and his Metal Heroishness. I also, believe it or not, like the Complete Form of Diend. It's about time the walking plot hole got an upgrade to become an even bigger plot hole.

The pig Imagin guy reminds me of something out of Gekiranger.

[Forever Knight]

G Den-O looks cool, very Metal Heroes like. Just hope he isn't going to be another asshole Rider, we already have Accel... and I heard he has an artificial Imagin named Eve, so looks like we're gonna have another female Imagin.

For some reason this Pig Imagin reminds me of that Shin-chan/Den-O crossover...maybe it's that same "Imagin?" lol..

How is Accel an Asshole Rider?. He is tough, not an asshole.

[Lynxara]

Yes, sure, you didn't like the episode, obvious enough, but that doesn't mean it wasn't about a world fusion.

I liked the arc well enough as a chain of dumb fights, actually.

I just didn't think there was much more to it than that and I really can't believe anyone would take it seriously as a setting piece. That world didn't feel at all like a fusion at all, it felt like a bunch of mostly empty lots that Toei could rent for filming on the cheap.

No, that doesn't negate what Toei told us was supposed to be happening... but good storytelling is about showing, not telling, especially in visual media. So if the visuals aren't there, I think it's fair to consider the story compromised.

Do you really think that Tsukasa moving to protect the kid's life is that weird?

It was weird from a tonal standpoint. Decade is very rarely depicted as a Rider interested primarily in saving the helpless. I always read him as more selfish in the vein of most modern Riders, mostly following his own agenda.

Likewise, prior Decade fights were not very much about saving innocent bystanders after the early eps. When kids did appear at all, they were completely in the background or arc characters.

It was the first time a Decade episode bothered to go "Hey! People will die if a Rider doesn't save them!" with Showa-era explicitness. Granted, it's not the first inconsistent thing Tsukasa did purely to please a Rider he needed to team-up with.

That little speech he gives after he saves the kid kind of rammed it over the top, though. Yeah, guys, a lot of Black episodes involved kids in peril, we get it.

But, previous summons had talked and showed personality, and Ixa's showed that it had some kind of internal visor, so having a copy of the Rider in there isn't really such a stretch.

To quote Hermes Conrad: "That just raises further questions!!"

[NeonZ]

That world didn't feel at all like a fusion at all, it felt like a bunch of mostly empty lots that Toei could rent for filming on the cheap.

There were settings from the Hibiki and Blade Worlds. The Board building and the florest. The church, although not really from Kiva's episodes, had a certain Gothic style, which fit Kiva...

That said, everything I've mentioned was in the first episode. The 2nd one just used a bunch of empty locations. It was almost like a completely different setting.

It was weird from a tonal standpoint. Decade is very rarely depicted as a Rider interested primarily in saving the helpless. I always read him as more selfish in the vein of most modern Riders, mostly following his own agenda.

Like I've mentioned before, what about when he faced the Grongi army in the Kuuga World? That was pretty early in the series, and it already was a selfless act.

Anyway, "in the vein of most modern Riders"? I really disagree. Most main Riders, at least, are clearly heroic, even if some can be whiny sometimes.

That little speech he gives after he saves the kid kind of rammed it over the top, though. Yeah, guys, a lot of Black episodes involved kids in peril, we get it.

Tsukasa's speeches always were over the top. They're basically the only thing about his character I really enjoyed.

[KaenBurakku]

I think the empty space they were using in Rider War world episode 2 was the fact that they were trying to go for a 'ruined world' look.

[Lynxara]

Like I've mentioned before, what about when he faced the Grongi army in the Kuuga World? That was pretty early in the series, and it already was a selfless act.

He pretty much had to do that if he was going to form any kind of personal connection with Kuuga. He had to act like Kuuga would on some level. Even when that first aired I thought Tsukasa was doing the right thing for his own reasons, more or less. Why bother giving him a conscience in the form of Onodera otherwise?

Personally, that's an aspect of the character I found interesting, the idea that he was kind of selfish and mostly concerned with living the way he wanted to live. The universe was just lucky that Tsukasa basically liked people and was gratified by connecting with them. Had he wanted to be an insane loner hermit everyone would've been SOL.

Most main Riders, at least, are clearly heroic, even if some can be whiny sometimes.

I don't think having a personal agenda is opposed to heroism. I think it is pretty different from the way Showa dudes just lived to save little kids from kaijin, though. A different sort of attitude toward the genre, you might say. Heisei Riders want things aside from just being a Rider, that goes back to Godai.